4651. [A DISCOURSE] WITH SPIRITS TO THE EFFECT THAT THEY BRING PUNISHMENT UPON THEMSELVES, AND THAT PUNISHMENT IS CONJOINED WITH EVIL. I was in conversation with certain spirits, concerning the evil of punishment, and of misfortune that happens to the evil; [and I said] that they themselves bring it on themselves. They thought that it appears otherwise, and hence that it is not so, because punishers come and punish, and that they are other spirits who do this, and, therefore, that they do not bring the punishment on themselves. They were told, that if they had not done evil the punishers would not have come; but this they did not very well understand. The truth was exhibited by means of a similar case: if anyone strikes his hand against a wall where there are spikes, and so hurts his hand, whether it is the wall which occasions the hurt, or whether it is they who bring it upon themselves: it appears as if it were the wall; but they know it comes from them, and so, that they do it to themselves. It is still more clearly manifest from laws in the world: he who commits evil is punished, as soon as convicted of having done the evil; for, then, he draws the punishment upon himself, although others administer it. Thus also are evil, and the punishment of evil, conjoined in the world. Such is the intention of the laws. It is still more so in the other life. At length, they comprehended. It was concluded that this springs from the fact that good has in itself rewards, and, conjoined with itself, happiness. Hence is derived the law, in opposites, that evil has in itself punishment, and, conjoined with itself, damnation. In the one provision the other is provided; for opposites are similarly, but oppositely, circumstanced.